COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
stealth ideas that will work for CoEs style

CoE has emphasised making skills more realistic and fun by combining both PLAYER SKILL and CHARACTER SKILL

instead of a crouch and go invis game , in terms of PLAYER SKILL: vision cones will matter putting more emphasis on information gathering (no. of guards/where they stand of a place you want to infiltrate), planning and patience.. this is where it should lie. you shouldnt make it easy to be in stealth by just going invisible, otherwise it would be overpowered. Also in an mmo, the one shot knock out from stealth should be nerfed aswell but more on that below*

for CHARACTER SKILL: i believe there has to be downsides to novice character stealth with more sound created but more importantly new gameplay mechanics should be introduced the more you develop your skill in stealth, for example: 1)by learning to go PRONE (uknowthatthinghumansdotostayunseenthatnevermakesitintoanygamebutmetalgearsolid?) and being almost completely unseen that way, instead of through crouch invisibility. 2)combining parkour and stealth to be able to quickly jump to and hide in the corner of a ceiling/on top of a tight hallway 3) or getting to master level and being able to cover urself in mud maybe in a forest and stay prone in rain while players are walking around you

see what i mean? just EVOLVING THE STEALTH MECHANICS AS THE PLAYER LEVELS UP STEALTH and the other players wont expect those mechanics to be in the game at all they would be looking for an idiot trying to crouch in the middle of a fort

*in CoE, Getting knocked out is a huge deal, full on combat classes would take much more time on getting this done than a traditional stealth knockout we see in other games. but since that can leave no counterplay from someone who just decides to sneak up on the spot and grief you, ive come up with another way to keep the one hit knock out and still make it fair: what if you have to stalk your prey and be a few feet a way in proximity for atleast a minute (ninjas are patient) before being able to deliver that knock out punch/assassination otherwise the action will fail and instead of being a knockout, the target will only lose a little health and now youre in a combat situation when youre specialised in stealth....being in proximity for that long and not detecting him means that the stealth guy did his job right and deserved to knock you out in one go, it also means that ninjas wont sneak around killing every single target they see cuz it would be too time consuming and too risky (more chance to get caught)

ANOTHER FEATURE if youre target has a high enough attention/perceptiveness skill they might get informed of the ninja thats stalking them through their character meaning ninjas will have to think of another way to kill target with high attention/perceptiveness instead.

SBS should consider mocaping a few unique animations exclusively for master tier mechanics when our characters level up that far. because imagine someone jumping out of a rooftop thats too high for normally to parkour but because his character is just that skilled , you the onlooker just see him do a front flip in mid air combined with a front roll to break the fall gracefully without breaking anything else


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4/8/2018 12:25:31 PM #1

They seem to be going for a realistic approach to stealth. To hide it's not a special skill that makes you invisible. it is more of a combo of learning to move quietly, using shadows to stay in the dark, keeping out of the line of sight of the target, and wearing appropriate clothing. Things that would catch the light or are bright colors would make you more visible. Wearing heavy armor or carrying a lot of gear would make you louder. And of course walking out into the open would let everyone see you if they're facing you.


4/8/2018 12:32:27 PM #2

Some of what you are considering is already a part of their plans. Right now you don't go invis, the invis you may be speaking of is a way for the game to communicate to you that your character is stealthing correctly and protects you against people who will just increase their gamma to see better at night. You aren't able to crouch down in the middle of a bright area and go invisible. You can't see around corners, line of sight and where guards are will matter with their current plans.

As far as character skill, nothing has been mentioned so far. There is suppose to be a sensory map for hearing and smelling. I imagine we could have softer footsteps, silent running, silent landing, and silent interactions at higher character skills.

I do hope CoE has good stealth techniques, I think stealthers are already at a disadvantage due to player building. If players want to protect something important they can build for function and protection.

4/8/2018 2:09:57 PM #3

This could be fun to have stealth based hunting

  • Choose a route where you are covered.
  • Only move when the prey is distracted or looking away.
  • Don't step on old leaves or similar noisy terrain
  • Always to approach the prey from downwind.

4/8/2018 5:31:42 PM #4

what do you guys think of that stalking idea for the one shot knockout/assassination ??

Posted By Deftly at 6:02 PM - Sun Apr 08 2018

" I imagine we could have softer footsteps, silent running, silent landing, and silent interactions at higher character skills." yes im all for increasing the number of mechanics to the player as character skill increases , and something like silent landing might mean the character also needs a high enough parkour skill


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4/8/2018 8:00:43 PM #5

Posted By Deftly at 07:32 AM - Sun Apr 08 2018

Some of what you are considering is already a part of their plans. Right now you don't go invis, the invis you may be speaking of is a way for the game to communicate to you that your character is stealthing correctly and protects you against people who will just increase their gamma to see better at night. You aren't able to crouch down in the middle of a bright area and go invisible. You can't see around corners, line of sight and where guards are will matter with their current plans.

As far as character skill, nothing has been mentioned so far. There is suppose to be a sensory map for hearing and smelling. I imagine we could have softer footsteps, silent running, silent landing, and silent interactions at higher character skills.

I do hope CoE has good stealth techniques, I think stealthers are already at a disadvantage due to player building. If players want to protect something important they can build for function and protection.

Yeah, CoE will have a "cheatproof" rendering system like what's in War Thunder- if the game calculates using the above that you shouldn't be able to see someone or something, it just won't render it for you.

It also prevents players from gaining an advantage by lowering their settings to thin out foliage, for example.


4/8/2018 9:13:55 PM #6

The one minute timer seems like a long time. Especially, when you have out of game communication services. Say, you are trying to steal something for a castle that has a number of guards outside and inside the castle. You knock out a player to get deeper into the castle. The first guy you knock out tells everyone in their discord he was KOed and to be careful. I doubt you would be able to stand behind anyone else for a whole minute after that.

4/8/2018 10:05:41 PM #7

I'm all for reality when it comes to stealth. If they're truly pushing realism, then someone shouldn't just be able to go invis or vanish at the drop of a hat. But rather stick to the shadows and hide out of site.

I think learned abilities should include softer footsteps and quiet running and jumping and so on. Maybe an ability that helps camouflage you better with your surroundings making it harder to spot you unless you move. Key words being "harder to spot you"...not impossible.

I also agree with a one shot kill aspect (No timers for anything). If an assassin makes it past all the guards and any traps in his way (which would be the hardest part), then he should be able to one shot his target. After all, the hard part is making it to your target in the first place. Take a king for example...an assassin would have to be extremely good or extremely lucky to even make it to the king, but if he actually is able to make it there and sneak right up behind him, then why can't he take him out in one shot. If the king doesn't know he's there then he will not be protecting himself and a one shot kill should be possible.

One way to keep assassins from just killing anyone is to make use of the contract system. Make it where the assassin can't use his one shot ability unless there is an actual contract on the person. Then they can't just sneak up and one shot anyone they want.

I also think an assassin should be able to poison the water supply or the food. Maybe poison isn't instant and the target can call for a healer to cure him...but if he's not cured in time then he dies.

There will be a definite problem with people shouting out in discord if you knock them out. Honestly I see no way around that except don't get caught.


4/8/2018 10:45:25 PM #8

Being invisible like in other games, would be silly in this one, unless it is a rare talent (making the player mostly invisible but spotable if someone really looks) . A little bit of realism would be welcome, A lot of other mmos use stealth/stun for easy kills with minimal skills, something that required actual skill and some luck to perform would be more balanced.


4/9/2018 1:03:48 AM #9

Posted By Mister Anderson at 5:45 PM - Sun Apr 08 2018

Being invisible like in other games, would be silly in this one, unless it is a rare talent (making the player mostly invisible but spotable if someone really looks) . A little bit of realism would be welcome, A lot of other mmos use stealth/stun for easy kills with minimal skills, something that required actual skill and some luck to perform would be more balanced.

From my understanding of the system, you won't turn invisible for everyone by crouching in the middle of the open. Say you're hiding around a corner with a guard on your side and a guard on the other side. The guard on your side will see you plain as day but the guard around the corner won't be able to see you even if they pan their camera to artificially peak around the corner like you can in other games.

Likewise if you're sitting still in dense brush and shadow, you likely won't render unless someone has especially high stats for detection.

Though what I'm wondering is how in-depth that will be. What would make sense, but I'm not sure if it was confirmed yet, would be that if you see someone as they enter a "highly concealed" area where they otherwise wouldn't render, you should still be able to see them until they move somewhere where they break line-of-sight.


4/9/2018 2:31:04 AM #10

Hey now, that sounds quite well thought out, well balanced


10/22/2018 1:10:19 PM #11

I don't know about any kind of one shot kill mechanic being a good thing, because there's still no counter play to it.

Maybe for a king having a paranoid sense of self preservation at all times is necessary, but I shouldn't have the same amount of stress and effort put into not being assassinated as a blacksmith.

It would be much better/easier to implement a skill based system that allows skill to still win out. For example, instead of a one shot kill you get a buff on your first attack on your target that does extra damage plus debuffs the target for a short duration, decreasing their movement and making it more difficult for them to fight you(whether that be they deal reduced damage, have a lower max stamina, they take more damage, or lose use of one hand, etc).

This still gives you a ton of advantages for being skilled in your stealth gameplay, but without removing gameplay entirely from your target and, if they are really really good at combat, they can still defend themselves long enough to outlast the debuff and defeat you.


10/22/2018 3:40:14 PM #12

@Kringe

So, assassins are kinda not supposed to have a really good counter if they are good at what they do. That's kinda the point. But I get what you're saying.

However, there is absolutely a way to provide counterplay opportunities to would be victims. This idea was proposed elsewhere I think, don't remember by whom. But basically there are a couple skill checks that take place followed by a brief killshot QTE type event and a corresponding defense QTE type event of the victim. The ease of either would be based on the previously mentioned skill check.

This way, players with high corresponding skills are more likely, but not guaranteed, to land the killing blow due to character/player skill. Conversely, the victim has the opportunity to avoid instant death by having high character/player skill.

Results could range from silent killing blow, noisy killing blow, crippling wound w/noise, minor wound w/noise, or no damage and victim counter attacks - beginning proper combat.

It isn't that far fetched and would be really cool to have those intense moments.

-Kash


-Kash

10/22/2018 10:49:55 PM #13

Posted By Kashius at 10:40 AM - Mon Oct 22 2018

@Kringe

So, assassins are kinda not supposed to have a really good counter if they are good at what they do. That's kinda the point. But I get what you're saying.

However, there is absolutely a way to provide counterplay opportunities to would be victims. This idea was proposed elsewhere I think, don't remember by whom. But basically there are a couple skill checks that take place followed by a brief killshot QTE type event and a corresponding defense QTE type event of the victim. The ease of either would be based on the previously mentioned skill check.

This way, players with high corresponding skills are more likely, but not guaranteed, to land the killing blow due to character/player skill. Conversely, the victim has the opportunity to avoid instant death by having high character/player skill.

Results could range from silent killing blow, noisy killing blow, crippling wound w/noise, minor wound w/noise, or no damage and victim counter attacks - beginning proper combat.

It isn't that far fetched and would be really cool to have those intense moments.

-Kash

That's a possibility. I personally dislike QTEs, but this is the kind of place where their application is useful.

I still prefer utilizing already built in systems over implementing completely different systems in terms of combat. There's not really a way to practice QTEs for this scenario besides constantly being ganked, but utilizing the combat system and being handicapped means you're still going to be able to utilize your fighting experience when defending yourself if someone gets the drop on you.


10/24/2018 12:02:16 PM #14

@Kringe

While you're correct that there is no way to practice the QTE portion of the defense mechanic, would that really be in the spirit of what's happening?

I'm a guard on patrol. It's late and I am eagerly anticipating my shift ending so I can go home, curl up next to my wife, and go to sleep. It's been quiet in the keep for many months now, and my routine route is something I know by heart. As I get to my 3rd checkpoint, I settle for a moment before moving on when all of a sudden I get grabbed from behind - a black gloved hand covering my mouth, muffling my surprised gasp! From my years of training, I know I only have but a moment to react before a knife finds a gap in my armor and I am done in...

This is the intensity of the situation we're talking about. You're surprised, caught off guard. Your training in combat or stealth (or whatever) allows you a window of opportunity as the assassin readies their blade for the killing blow. There is no practice, only reaction. And the efficiency of that reaction is based on your training or lack thereof.

The whole idea is centered around the notion that getting the jump puts you at a significant advantage. No different from an archer firing a well placed arrow. Literally no defense against that. This system would at least provide an opportunity.

-KW-


-Kash

11/3/2018 7:18:05 AM #15

Assassins should be at a huge disadvantage, otherwise it'll all be too easy. There will be some gamers out there who'll be very good at what they do, taking years to perfect it and succeeding more with nooby nobles and lazy kings than the smart, the experienced and the cautious. I think assassins will be very successful in walless settlements than walled settlements, where there are less risky alternatives to getting close to the king such as being a guard or flipping those closest to him.

Assassins should have almost no help, making them rare. Otherwuse there'd be no need to engage in politics and the art of war.