Posted By Logain at 02:33 AM - Sun Oct 07 2018

I agree with Caspian, when he continuously mentions that the very definition of the term 'grieving' is the real problem, simply because there is non (at least not a universally accepted one). The perception of actions strongly depends on the target audience of your game and I would argue that the target audience for CoE is very different to that of a 'standard MMORPG', or I should be more precise there and say that it is going to differ after a couple of month, simply because in the first few month a good amount of people is bound to 'hop in', without spending the time to research on the differences between CoE and 'standard MMORPG'. When these people realized that the game won't carter to their desires and have left, I'd say the remaining real target audience is bound to be a lot more open to accepting negative setbacks.

That's similar to the ideas I've had. I couldn't see any part of what is "working as intended" from either side, as being griefing. Sure there's actual harassment and taking certain things too far, but if I were to be building happily away on a treehouse and someone manages to best me or my traps, whoops! Find a couple of extra-sweet roleplayers near a waterfall? If you choose to approach, it's up to them to handle it. Not your fault they aren't shacked up somewhere private.

But bear in mind, it's not as though there's a massive group that will be able to wreak game-ruining havoc all over the place easily and without consequence. People who want the good opportunities will stay here, and there's so many places where less-pvp or less-tolerant minded people could find sanctuary away from risks of other aggressive players. It's a big world, and plenty of people to defend it.

Good feedback

Posted By AlteOgre at 02:49 AM - Sun Oct 07 2018

For the in-game situation I doubt if it would effectively help the community to make that distinction between in-character evil roleplay and 'evil' player behaviour. I do not think we should make a distinction between in-character or out-of-character in-game PC behaviour as I think all in-game character behaviour is to be considered in-character, except for the communication of players in out-of-character channels. So, any in-game behaviour is to be considered in-character and addressed through in-character acts. If you think that there is a type of in-game behaviour by PCs that should not be addressed as in-character acting, please provide concrete examples so they can be discussed. I cannot think of any at this moment. Even PCs writing texts on scrolls or signs and speaking in ways in the in-character chat that do not fit in the in-game theme and roleplay can be considered in-character behaviour and responded to in in-character ways. NPCs will not be able to understand the messages and PCs should act as if the same holds for them. Result is that the messenger can be ignored, called crazy or even trigger various types of hostile responses.

Player misbehaviour in out-of-character channels, whether or not in-game should not be addressed in any in-character situation and can be addressed in any of the out-of-character channels. Players can decide for themselves in what way and where to deal with other players behaving badly. Besides the obvious blocking and banning from inofficial communication platforms, the ultimate response would be to report a player to SBS, using the appropriate channel.

Thanks! This is exactly how I feel. I don't have the posts right on hand, but I do remember some folks labeling certain in-character acts as "griefing" and it got me thinking more about it tonight.

Posted By MarquisVetivier at 05:00 AM - Sun Oct 07 2018

So, I'm going to take a stab at this with a theory of my own.

It has been my experience that folks that want to "be evil" in a game rarely have a reason for their actions, other than "being evil". The best Bad Guys/Gals (especially in books and film) are folks with realistic, tangible goals much like those around them, what makes them bad is their methodology and willingness to harm others to achieve their goals. SO, if you have a good background, that fits the storyline, that doesn't sound manipulated and ridiculous, that causes you to hate Kypiq/To'resk/Brudvir/etc. and you want to maim/mutilate/destroy them to avenge some wrong, or rise to rule the kingdom no matter what, because...or whatever. You take steps to accomplish those goals, thieving, maiming, killing, looting and pillaging along the way, good on ya, be evil and prosper!! However, if you are just going in and destroying things (characters/buildings/animals/whatever) because "it's fun", and there is no actual advantage gained, you're just being a PITA, and a griefer. Statistically, folks who actually are psychotic enough to do random acts of unkindness, continuously, constantly, are rare in the extreme. Although it may not be understood by the masses, MOST have some form of reason.

Make your acts of evil have a point, an endgame, a purpose that helps you and yours. Otherwise, your not evil, you're just a jerk. Probably not a popular take on the matter, but that's my two cents.

You make a very good argument. Those random acts of evil could be compared to The Joker as a villain, but most people probably are not going to match that and very doubtfully have reason other than how you described.

Keep in mind that they did specify tearing things down wouldn't be drastically easier than building them. I believe characters that could do more than be a nuisance, and truly cause problems, would have to had clearly trained the right skills, be strong as a player and probably have help to begin with. All the basics of a deviant could be heavily outweighed by the skills and numbers of other players.

For instance, a kingdom could be on the verge of intercontinental travel and unlocking new things for the world. It would take quite a player to burn the boats and sabotage this. However, if another kingdom wants to be first and go to war, that too isn't necessarily the evil we're talking about.

Having a purpose especially for the roleplay would make a huge difference. For the solo at heart, your argument doesn't apply a huge amount however to say.. serial killers, daemon worshipers, etc. Even with simple highway bandits, profit is the purpose. Some characters just make better villains.

The first time a miner gets attacked and killed while he/she is minding their own business, they will call griefing. At that moment, they will scream to the world how CoE caters to griefers and a good chunk of people will then not buy the game. Yes, it will limit the game to a "core" audience. The one who knows they can kill any player and call it roleplaying "evil".

This argument is as old as gaming. Ultima Online made a PvE world called Trammel just for this reason. Their subscription base was always dropping. Their subscription base jumped way up the moment miners no longer had to fear being killed while out minding their own business.

You can hide it behind "roleplaying" all you want. The fact is that Joe Bob just wants to go mine to get resources to work on their home. They just want to roleplay a miner and decorate their house so their daughter can log in and look at the pretties. The moment they discover it can all be gone in a heartbeat because EyEPwnZJ00 decided he found an easy mark, that guy is gone. His wife and their kid as well. That is 3 accounts right off the bat. Wait until he talks to his friends.

Candycoat it all you want. Wrap it in the comfortable "roleplay" blanket and tell Joe Bob how he should have investigated the game more. All he saw was that he could build a farm, raise some cattle, do some mining and make a pretty place him and his family could log in and enjoy.

That my friends is roleplaying evil.

Posted By Seyr at 07:06 AM - Sun Oct 07 2018

The first time a miner gets attacked and killed while he/she is minding their own business, they will call griefing. At that moment, they will scream to the world how CoE caters to griefers and a good chunk of people will then not buy the game. Yes, it will limit the game to a "core" audience. The one who knows they can kill any player and call it roleplaying "evil".

This argument is as old as gaming. Ultima Online made a PvE world called Trammel just for this reason. Their subscription base was always dropping. Their subscription base jumped way up the moment miners no longer had to fear being killed while out minding their own business.

You can hide it behind "roleplaying" all you want. The fact is that Joe Bob just wants to go mine to get resources to work on their home. They just want to roleplay a miner and decorate their house so their daughter can log in and look at the pretties. The moment they discover it can all be gone in a heartbeat because EyEPwnZJ00 decided he found an easy mark, that guy is gone. His wife and their kid as well. That is 3 accounts right off the bat. Wait until he talks to his friends.

Candycoat it all you want. Wrap it in the comfortable "roleplay" blanket and tell Joe Bob how he should have investigated the game more. All he saw was that he could build a farm, raise some cattle, do some mining and make a pretty place him and his family could log in and enjoy.

That my friends is roleplaying evil.

Keep in mind there is a large amount of ways to prevent these things. There will be an abundance of "good" players, safer towns, skills and gear of your own, laws and not to mention the amount of ways you may build your structure with it including locks, traps, etc. Yes, there will be people that choose to spend time trying to profit off of the expense of others. It does not mean it will be easy. This is not minecraft, where someone could simply left click your entire house away. It is simply not that easy. There are hidden safes, chests, rooms and so much that a player could accomplish. I don't believe it'll be as simple as "I logged in and all of my things are gone and I'm permadead" across the board. If that happened to someone, they probably have poor OPC behavior settings, poor structure, poorly made and limited to no traps, no guards, and live somewhere outside of a town away from friends, family and other good players.

That lone miner, going off to find ore by himself, ill-prepared, carrying no weapons and didn't train any combat skills, and isn't on a mount? In this huge world, making isolation easy as traveling is difficult? If they run into that person who will take advantage of all of these things (and having no actual way of knowing this is the case, mind you) then your miner Joe Bob probably should be taught this lesson.

Posted By Goblij at 09:29 AM - Sun Oct 07 2018

That lone miner, going off to find ore by himself, ill-prepared, carrying no weapons and didn't train any combat skills, and isn't on a mount? In this huge world, making isolation easy as traveling is difficult? If they run into that person who will take advantage of all of these things (and having no actual way of knowing this is the case, mind you) then your miner Joe Bob probably should be taught this lesson.

To feel they should be taught that lesson is evil in itself. That they need to learn they might end up dead, so they then know they may end up dead. "I was just showing them they need to be prepared!"

I have been that miner. I have also been the person teaching them the lesson. My game roots go back to before there was ever PvE and everything was PvP. I mention this so that nobody mistakes my argument for being a carebear. I only chimed in because roleplayers treat Evil as an excuse to be a jerk. There is no reason to kill a miner. Are you an evil wizard? Wtf you doing out walking around near miners to begin with.

So as far as the defining difference between being an evil wizard or being a jerk who likes to PK? If the person cannot answer that, they are not a roleplayer. An evil wizard would not go out walking around looking for miners to kill. He/she would kill one if they got in their way, yes.

I would like to roleplay a drunk who has lost his way in life and was betrayed by the woman he loves. In his despair he has decided that all miners should die, since it was a miner who stole his beloved. I will go out every morning and kill any miner I see. One day I may get lucky and it will be the one whole took my love from me.

That is roleplaying to me. Sucks for Joe Bob the miner though. To him it is griefing pure and simple. Nothing you say will change that fact. Period. He will cancel his account and post tons of threads on the forums. Anyone who has been in this industry a while is currently nodding their head and saying "yep".

I am just trying to give both sides to this. You can build up the most detailed backstory you can think of, to justify your actions. At the end of the day though, if you are killing unarmed crafters, it is griefing. You can call it game mechanics and the devs can call it game mechanics, but to that miner and the public in general, it is griefing.

Posted By Seyr at 08:37 AM - Sun Oct 07 2018

Posted By Goblij at 09:29 AM - Sun Oct 07 2018

That lone miner, going off to find ore by himself, ill-prepared, carrying no weapons and didn't train any combat skills, and isn't on a mount? In this huge world, making isolation easy as traveling is difficult? If they run into that person who will take advantage of all of these things (and having no actual way of knowing this is the case, mind you) then your miner Joe Bob probably should be taught this lesson.

I have been that miner. I have also been the person teaching them the lesson. My game roots go back to before there was ever PvE and everything was PvP. I mention this so that nobody mistakes my argument for being a carebear. I only chimed in because roleplayers treat Evil as an excuse to be a jerk. There is no reason to kill a miner. Are you an evil wizard? Wtf you doing out walking around near miners to begin with.

So as far as the defining difference between being an evil wizard or being a jerk who likes to PK? If the person cannot answer that, they are not a roleplayer. An evil wizard would not go out walking around looking for miners to kill. He/she would kill one if they got in their way, yes.

That is roleplaying to me. Sucks for Joe Bob the miner though. To him it is griefing pure and simple. Nothing you say will change that fact. Period. He will cancel his account and post tons of threads on the forums. Anyone who has been in this industry a while is currently nodding their head and saying "yep".

Still, there are wholesome ways to prevent the miner's death, and they still need to walk the Astral Plane before a permadeath. A lot of things that protect any kind of player. The odds of randoms simply PKing all the time are pretty high against those who are running around unarmed and alone. At the same time, running into someone friendly is most likely going to happen a lot. This isn't other games such as Everquest, Shadowbane or even WoW PvP servers. If a person wants to roleplay a killer, they will pay the price eventually. They cannot simply respawn fully decked out and go right back to it. The "killer" could permadie, and risks needing a new Spark of Life. The penalty for death is pretty punishing, similarly to the loss of weeks worth of experience points in EQ in addition to needing your corpse looted. It literally costs to be a "griefer" or "evil" and get caught. "Griefing" in the eyes of the miner will exist sure, but it still isn't going to be super easy to do all of the time.

Appreciate the discussion, I understand your point of view and only time will show what might happen to the CoE community. Hopefully everyone's able to be happy.

Lastly, this isn't an MMO remember, it's a MEOW :P

Posted By Goblij at 10:50 AM - Sun Oct 07 2018

Still, there are wholesome ways to prevent the miner's death, and they still need to walk the Astral Plane before a permadeath.

Yes and no matter what anyone argues for or against, we won't know for sure until we log in and see. Even then it may or may not change within the next year or so.

Between roleplayers, evil is a mindset and determines ones actions in any given situation. In an online game, there is no Dungeon Master pointing out that your character would never do that action because of their alignment. The moment you add the word griefing to the equation, it changes.

One roleplayer to another, I can see why you would kill that miner. I may or may not support it, but I can see how it would fit in with your narrative. The unarmed miner will always view it as griefing. Unless it is a very friendly roleplayer who does not mind losing hours worth of work and has to spend the remaining 1.5hrs of his playtime (he has to work tomorrow) trying to make sense of what happened and get back home and feed the cows. His wife will be very mad if he does not feed the cows, because she needs the milk for crafting.

Posted By Seyr at 09:14 AM - Sun Oct 07 2018

One roleplayer to another, I can see why you would kill that miner. I may or may not support it, but I can see how it would fit in with your narrative.

Personally if I were playing an evil character, I wouldn't just kill the miner! It was an example for the random act of violence versus the miner's own preparedness.

My character is still in early development in my head, so I'm not sure what I would do :) Maybe offer a contract to guard for a portion of the resources if they're good, or other items. The evil aspect would come in more if they don't agree to the 50/50 terms ;p

...Then there's the thought of the type of player you'd encounter. Younger players, more casual players without as much time, or anyone in between that focuses on things like your miner. You're right, we do want them to enjoy the game. Still, a lot of safer places and things to protect them :)