COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
Should the Terms of Use be updated?
  • my intention with this post is to not defame or blame but to inform and discuss.
Preface:

After reading today's community post (Admin Edits...) as well as seeing the mentioned edits, post removal, entire conversations altered or deleted both in the forums and on discord I started to question why this is now the accepted normal operating procedures.

Previously it was normal to see more conflicting and controversial topics to either development of the game , or in a subject pertaining to topics either direct or indirectly to "the Dance Of Dynasties". We now find ourselves with missing user generated content in direct opposition to what the conversation was portraying... as questions and statements are simply missing / edited / topic posts deleted, moved or altered.

Question:#

In the name of censorship is the player-base being manipulated, if so for what purpose?

When speaking to our community outreach moderators, we are often told after the action was done that they will not discuss moderation actions. Another response is refer to the Terms of Use. Reviewing the Terms of Use it states that players use of the forums (user generated content) as well as discord (3rd party service) belong to the company and that content can be removed, blocked, edited, moved or disabled for any reason with or without notice and without liability.

  • This was to review and remove offensive material against obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, violent, harassment, or objectionable material. However it is now being interpreted as material which could question the company and its views or those who work with the company.

Soulbound Studios reserves the sole and final right. All Content is owned by Soulbound Studios.

Question:#

what is the point of generating user content if our company owned written thoughts are to be removed or worse changed into propaganda ?

Some interesting quotes from the Admin Edit's Post " If you don't like something we do, feel free to provide us with your critical yet constructive criticism, we can take it and have stated before that we want it in order to try and do better. "

  • I hope this post might start a conversation to accomplish just that.

" When a new player joins and reads a news post from us, and some community members decide to reply with negative destructive swipes at the studio just because they can, we reserve the right to moderate as needed. It is stated in our Terms of Use, and it is what we feel is in the best interest of the community as a whole. "

You may not agree with it, but it is not what I classify as censorship. This isn't a public website where freedom of speech reigns supreme. We have guidelines to ensure constructive discussion and we will continue to do our best to enforce them as needed while trying our best to not overstep. "

  • When is asking about development timelines or questioning actions being taken to moderate players negative and destructive ? while these have been often detailed and explained in the past should we remove them if people continually have these questions ?

TL:DR - Too Long Didn't Read.

Topic is to question motivations behind removal /editing content. Nothing is really defined aside from "disruptive to the community" however its implementation is often different then defined statements.

Closing Statement.

"it is all logged and recorded so any instance of something being moderated can easily be explained to the person who was moderated if they simply reach out and ask."

  • If it's edited or removed, how do you know what to ask about

    ?


12/4/2019 1:20:53 AM #1

At the very least they should be clarified and not followed selectively. Seems to be no way to pin them down and the definitions seem ever changing based on the situation.


12/4/2019 1:30:39 AM #2

@Zelcovian

While I don't necessarily disagree with the context of your post, there was one area I wanted to comment on:

"Previously it was normal to see more conflicting and controversial topics to either development of the game..."

I strongly feel this has less to do with them censoring content (as someone who has frequently butt heads with SBS, I can say that I can't recall a single time they have deleted or edited one of my rants), and more to do with the fact that most of the people who have critical comments have simply given up posting, or being involved in Discord or the forums, almost entirely.

I know many people, both inside of my community and out of it, that have similar levels of frustration to my own, they just can't be bothered (or realize it has zero impact) to voice their concerns, especially when they are the same concerns people have had for years.

I believe, at this point, the studio has basically "reset". Anything said, or "promised", or given as an expectation, etc. pre-DSS (in terms of plans/progress) can pretty much be thrown out the window.

Gone are the days of close interaction with the higher tier backers, the engaged back and forth, the true insight into development. Too many things have changed. Too many things have not gone according to plan. SBS has had to shift too many stances/proposals from when they originally began.

I am not saying that to point fingers or blame, it's just the way it is - as development progresses, things change. Many of the older pledges still hold them to old standards/behaviors that simply aren't relevant any more (evidently).

Many people may not be happy with the changes, but the "marketing focus" (if you want to call it that) is no longer on the veteran players, it's on the new and potential players.

To do that, they need to keep a relatively clean public image. People like me voicing criticisms doesn't help that.

So, long story longer, the reduced amount of controversial or critical comments isn't really a direct result of them censoring the forums, but rather an indirect result of that group basically just leaving.

I say indirect, but frankly I view it as a intentional result over time - encouraging the "bitching of the old guard" (whether it is justified or not) just doesn't "sell papers" these days. We have too many grudges.

Slowly but surely, they are pruning those active in the forums and Discord to those who are "good for public image".


Imgur

12/4/2019 1:33:42 AM #3

from reviewing the terms of use and the mentioned 47 U.S.C. § 230. the definitions appear to remain defined only in terms of negative defamation... but everything else is un-defined, and up to interpretation.

Understandably this gives company's the rights to operate without intuition and messy civil requests... but due to the more recent influx of perceived censorship I wanted to start a discussion and get others views.


12/4/2019 1:34:47 AM #4

Posted By Marovec at 8:30 PM - Tue Dec 03 2019

@Zelcovian

While I don't necessarily disagree with the context of your post, there was one area I wanted to comment on:

"Previously it was normal to see more conflicting and controversial topics to either development of the game..."

I strongly feel this has less to do with them censoring content (as someone who has frequently butt heads with SBS, I can say that I can't recall a single time they have deleted or edited one of my rants), and more to do with the fact that most of the people who have critical comments have simply given up posting, or being involved in Discord or the forums, almost entirely.

I know many people, both inside of my community and out of it, that have similar levels of frustration to my own, they just can't be bothered (or realize it has zero impact) to voice their concerns, especially when they are the same concerns people have had for years.

I believe, at this point, the studio has basically "reset".

Gone are the days of close interaction with the higher tier backers, the engaged back and forth, the true insight into development.

Too many things have changed. Too many things have not gone according to plan. SBS has had to shift too many stances/proposals from when they originally began.

I am not saying that to point fingers or blame, it's just the way it is - as development progresses, things change.

Many people may not be happy with the changes, but the "marketing focus" (if you want to call it that) is no longer on the veteran players, it's on the new and potential players.

To do that, they need to keep a relatively clean public image. People like me voicing criticisms doesn't help that.

So, long story longer, the reduced amount of controversial or critical comments isn't really a direct result of them censoring the forums, but rather an indirect result of that group basically just leaving.

I say indirect, but frankly I view it as a intentional result over time - encouraging the "bitching of the old guard" (whether it is justified or not) just doesn't "sell papers" these days. We have too many grudges.

Curating tone and discussion doesn't help their public image is the issue. Without large amounts of the game to show off the only real way they have to bring in new people is with their ideas and showing they are willing to communicate with their customer base openly. Take away the open communication and its even harder to convince new people its worth it.


12/4/2019 1:39:07 AM #5

I think the current ToS and forum CoC are very loose which was really handy back when there was only myself and a couple others moderating the forums back in ye olden days, and allowed the next generation of moderation under Serp and the mod gang to keep things in ship-shape too, but I think as the community grows, and therefore the moderator team grows, they could do with being tightened up to be a little less open to interpretation.

Not sure whether we're necessarily at that point now as we go back into a lull between large community events, and even if the ToS is updated I'm sure Serp will still step in and overrule the ToS if he thinks it's beneficial for the forums. And that's OK. Serpentius is a good guy and has his head screwed on, if he does overstep in anything the community lets him and the mods know and it's all sorted.

But yes, going forward as the community gets larger I think the ToS and CoC should be a bit more specific, makes everyone's jobs easier for the most part. Only issue with having specific ToS and CoC is you inevitably get the occasional intelligent troll (consider that an oxymoron if you wish) who carefully make sure the disruption they cause is not strictly breaking any of the rules in the ToS. In this case, loose ToS/CoC is really handy as it goves more flexibility to the mods to justify a ban for example.


12/4/2019 1:40:39 AM #6

@Tulloch

Preaching to the choir...but even as skeptical as I am, I can't imagine they aren't aware of that opinion (I have been shouting it from the rooftops for quite some time now).

At this point, even the most stubborn must realize that their approach to communication and sharing is intentional.

They are doing it this way because they choose to do it this way. That applies to any moderation action in Discord, or the forums, as well.

They aren't doing because they don't know how some people feel.


Imgur

12/4/2019 1:41:15 AM #7

Posted By Khazad at 8:39 PM - Tue Dec 03 2019

I think the current ToS and forum CoC are very loose which was really handy back when there was only myself and a couple others moderating the forums back in ye olden days, and allowed the next generation of moderation under Serp and the mod gang to keep things in ship-shape too, but I think as the community grows, and therefore the moderator team grows, they could do with being tightened up to be a little less open to interpretation.

Not sure whether we're necessarily at that point now as we go back into a lull between large community events, and even if the ToS is updated I'm sure Serp will still step in and overrule the ToS if he thinks it's beneficial for the forums. And that's OK. Serpentius is a good guy and has his head screwed on, if he does overstep in anything the community lets him and the mods know and it's all sorted.

But yes, going forward as the community gets larger I think the ToS and CoC should be a bit more specific, makes everyone's jobs easier for the most part. Only issue with having specific ToS and CoC is you inevitably get the occasional intelligent troll (consider that an oxymoron if you wish) who carefully make sure the disruption they cause is not strictly breaking any of the rules in the ToS. In this case, loose ToS/CoC is really handy as it goves more flexibility to the mods to justify a ban for example.

If you allow one person to overrule your ToS, then there isn't any reason in having them. In my experience bringing up concerns gets you censored, but rarely changes anything.


12/4/2019 1:49:05 AM #8

@Marovec

I have seen fewer of those critical comment posts, but perhaps not being around enough to determine if that is due to them not posting anymore or simply posts that are removed quietly ?

As for discord, it just seems to be more of... fluff talk and any question or concern being removed as not being "on topic " in general chat.

In regards to marketing focus change to make an environment more for newer players while disregarding the old guard...

I can't say I've seen to much of that. Perhaps just now picking up on it... just hope to have an environment that we all still wish to contribute to..in hopes that this community doesn't just leave with the trolls.

distancing from the mentality of "When your a hammer everything looks like a nail."


12/4/2019 1:59:28 AM #9

@Khazad

I agree, with the community growing having better defined terms of use would help make the moderation and player base aware of a specific stance and thereby easier to moderate.

Also that Serp and the moderation group are here to help keep everyone happy and working together.

Just worried of that perception of an intelligent troll, not breaking any specific rules but also requiring moderation. I would think anyone that reads comments long enough starts seeing things in a different light, intentional or un-intentionally. Adding members to cover the growing number of posts make sense..thus reducing bias. But will it be enough ?


12/4/2019 5:29:15 PM #10

Posted By Marovec at 8:40 PM - Tue Dec 03 2019

@Tulloch

Preaching to the choir...but even as skeptical as I am, I can't imagine they aren't aware of that opinion (I have been shouting it from the rooftops for quite some time now).

At this point, even the most stubborn must realize that their approach to communication and sharing is intentional.

They are doing it this way because they choose to do it this way. That applies to any moderation action in Discord, or the forums, as well.

They aren't doing because they don't know how some people feel.

You nailed it here. Also, they still need a lot more time therefore a lot more money to complete this game to their satisfaction.

While the old guard has been and still continues to well support this project, I'm sure more than a few have hit their spending limit so it is necessary for SBS to attract new backers to continue development.

Expect them to moderate any post which paints either the game or the studio in a bad light, especially if the conversation carries on too long or becomes hostile and caustic.

I can't say it enough, these forums / Discord are entirely their house, expect SBS to run them in a manner most beneficial in raising the funds to reach their end goal, successful delivery of this game.

This is an entirely rational approach for them to take, and they well understand what they are risking with such a policy and the decisions which result from it.


You must all be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to get angry. JAMES 1:19 NLT

12/4/2019 9:32:21 PM #11

In general SBS has a very vague Terms Of Service (like most companies). In their article on User Generated Content, this concerned me:

"Content includes User Generated Content. ", with this implied, whatever falls under Content includes User Generated Content.

Furthermore, when it says "All content is owned by Soulbound Studios" (As well as going into detail with what Content is, which includes images, game suggestions, forum posts, user identifiers etc) this would mean they are claiming ownership of whatever content you, the user, post on the forums or share inside or with their services.

I'm not a lawyer, I can't comment on whether this is legal or not.


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12/4/2019 10:47:37 PM #12

It is common language in all ToU for games that I have ever read or played.


Divide et Impera

12/4/2019 10:56:18 PM #13

Posted By Focii at 4:47 PM - Wed Dec 04 2019

It is common language in all ToU for games that I have ever read or played.

This. I know it may sound far-reaching, but I believe there are fairly boilerplate legal reasons for managing it that way. It's totally standard. As it's been said before -- their house, their rules, and all of this is their property to manage, which we use and enjoy (hopefully) at their discretion. Even if we don't always agree with its editorial management.


12/5/2019 6:39:19 AM #14

True, though doesn't hurt to ask.

Moreover if it would assist in keeping discord and the forums live between developer news and updates.

ex. when something is moderated and everyone stops talking till another interesting subject comes along.

Don't know if something like this would help or not in that regard.. I do see why its common to manage the grey areas with broad scope usage agreements.

perhaps the best way to have constructive conversations is the forums and if enough folks feel the same way, send an email and see if a response is given.

never the less, good to know other folks have thought of this before and will continue again.


12/5/2019 2:14:58 PM #15

Posted By Zelcovian at

After reading today's community post (Admin Edits...) as well as seeing the mentioned edits, post removal, entire conversations altered or deleted both in the forums and on discord I started to question why this is now the accepted normal operating procedures.

Posted By Marovec at 12:40 PM - Wed Dec 04 2019

They are doing it this way because they choose to do it this way. That applies to any moderation action in Discord, or the forums, as well.

Don't forget about the Chronicles of Elyria Reddit too.

Sidenote: Getting the sense Marovec has read a bit of Noam Chomsky


"If we wait until we are ready, we'll be waiting for the rest of our lives..." code: CD83B4